I am curious about what you think about your country's current economic situation. From what I can tell it's short term sacrifices vs. being much worse off in the long run. Obviously a lot of people are very upset about the sacrifices the ECB is forcing your government to make, though from what I can tell it is probably the right thing to do given the circumstances. Yes, the Greek government fucked up royally, and it does seem unfair for them to transfer the cost of their irresponsibility to the citizens, but there is clearly some justification for it on the long-term macro level. I guess my question is, do you believe your government is doing the right thing? This is obviously open to everyone to discuss. I am just particularly interested in hearing what our Greek members (I think we have at least a couple) have to say.
it's true that the greece fucked up big and lived on other people's money for too long, but that is bullshit... they are asked to do way too much, way too fast at the worst possible time, and have no plan on how to actually IMPROVE the situation after that... a lot of people are saying that these "austerity" measures are crap on their own, and might even fuck things up even more it sucks how easily united europe is willing to let a part of itself fail or be fucked in the ass, and in the time when the entire europe needs fixing and improvement... thankfully, some people in the european parliament are speaking against that
Austerity during a deep recession is the worst possible idea and is just asking for revolt. Free market ftw.
they have to cut in 1 in 5 jobs in the government sector and reduce minimum wage... the former is a good thing in the very long term because greece's government is a fatter than a gathering of mcdonalds customers, BUT in this situation leaves you with bigger unemployment, poorer population, and even more trouble to deal with... the government needs to be reduced slowly, and there should be a plan for actual improvement... also: http://www.euractiv.com/euro-finance/socialist-mep-leader-troika-locusts-save-greece-news-510907
I go back every year as much as I can, so I have seen a lot of what is going on. Really sad stuff, tbh. The situation is very complex and difficult to understand. One detail that will help explain the anger and resistance to the government at this stage is the amount of fucked up bureaucracy that has been a part of life for so long. A lot of the problems stem from these deep issues. When the government is cutting and taxing and doing all these things without even acknowledging the fucked up elements of the system that have to change it is justified for people to be so pissed off. Just as an example, business owners have to deal with totally fucked up tax laws. For many years the system has been built on this mentality that the business owners are tax cheats and therefore the government tax officials assume they are making the maximum possible income given their business situation, and tax them based on that amount. So for example I know a licensed physical therapist who set up his own practice. In his first year they taxed him based on his office's squ are footage and the number of employees. year 2 it was that plus extra because he had been in business longer. They did not care whatsoever whether he was actually making enough revenue to justify that tax amount. Year 3 he closed up shop and works under the table. That story is very typical, and explains why 25% of the economy is black market. On top of the tax officials there are all the other officials. Every one there is to take what money they can get theirs hands on. Within the system so much of that money gets embezzled that it can be considered outright theft of business owners' money. In turn they shift their practices to keep more and more under the table and the government steps up their mistrust of the business owners. Vicious cycle. You have to deal with these things if you are going to get any where. Instead they have made an "emergency tax"' that gets tacked on to your electric bill. It is basically an extra 1 year of property taxes. You have one month to pay it or you lose your electricity. So I think that a lot of the rage is stemming from being pushed into a situation where you are losing everything, and the idiots in government haven't changed at all. Crime is up dramatically. Homelessness up 25%. Unemployment is around 20%, 40% for youths. And all around, business owners are going bankrupt. Another element is that after so many foreign occupations, there is a fear about the other countries' intentions, and a dislike for having Germany or Luxembourg telling them what to do. Iceland went bankrupt and nobody gave a shit. It happened fast and they are back on their feet. Dubai was short on their debt payments and Abu Dhabi bailed them out within days. Greece seems to be given a lot more grief over their situation than anybody else.
What's funny is that I've typed up equally long posts several times in the other thread about Greece but always deleted them thinking this shit is too complicated and nobody cares enough. I think the quickest way to sum it up is that people are mad about WHO has to sacrifice WHAT, as well as the somewhat prejudiced attitude of other EU member states Here is a pretty good article about the extent of tax evasion, though it really doesn't cover the why: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=apSz28ifLL9U About the emergency tax... long article so I will quote one good paragraph. Just about everyone I know over there is struggling to come up with the money for this. My parents agreed to split it with the landlord (who lives in the apartment downstairs), but a friend of mine has to come up with the money for his house and his mother's house (she is retired with no pension). The money doesn't sound like much, but with minimum wage of €750 a month pre-tax (with HIGH taxes) it is rough stuff. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/28/w...t-paying-new-property-tax.html?pagewanted=all No textbooks in schools this year (still ongoing AFAIK): http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_12/09/2011_406010 Another point is that the mandatory army service is a huge waste of resources. The majority of the army service is a total joke where very little gets done. They could trim things down, beef up the quality, and save a bundle while having a more solid army.
Didn't Iceland default on their debt? I think I've heard the argument that Greece should have done/should do the same.
Yep. Perhaps there is some difference in the details... I think it was Icelandic banks that defaulted (the gov't didn't bail them out) as opposed to a default on the sovereign debt.
As a dweller in an abusive nanny state, i understand the situation quite well. It all boils down to the fact that a select minority squandered billions, but now everyone will have to pay the price. And as a user of the Euro, Greece can't simply print money and devalue the currency like most sovereign states do. But to place all the burden on the taxpayer's shoulders is lunacy. I think there are a lot of places where the greek government could cut corners, but as typical politicians, the greek government is probably more worried about the integrity of the state, its institution, its sovereignity and their own pockets than with the suffering they are imposing on the taxpayers.
I am sorry I keep posting Krugman, but his analysis lately has been pretty spot-on. He wrote an interesting piece this week which pointed out that the Euro has in a way imposed the shortcomings of the gold standard on a lot of its states. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/27/opinion/krugman-what-ails-europe.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
It's a good article. Not very optimistic in the sense that all Greece has on the table is an array of bad choices, but somewhat illuminating about what is and isn't the root of the situation. But it's definitely worth focusing on how the EU takes the option of "inflating" (printing money to pay off debts) away. I saw a good interview with a Reagan era guy who made a good point, though. They were talking about how those monetary policies worked then but not now, and basically that the EU is currently dealing with things in a way that is harder in the short term, but smarter in the long term, whereas the US and UK are just making the problem worse and worse. I have to agree.
It was Paul Craig Roberts. But it wasn't on Alex Jones. It was some wannabe finance show, with a whiny interviewer who really didn't seem to understand very much. He doesn't seem like a 100% reliable dude, but he made some great points. Ah here we go http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/201...risis-on-the-edge-with-max-keiser-01-06-2012/ So the lean of that show is obvious, but PCR seemed to get it.
P.S. Did you guys see that the restructuring was ruled to not be a CDS default trigger? I bet a lot of hedge funds are pissed! And others delighted. Crock of shit.
Yeah but this isn't necessarily true. As I pointed out in the GOP thread, the US and the UK don't really seem to be making things worse and worse. In Greece they're making things bad in the short term but it's not necessarily clear that it's the right choice for the long run, either.
I can't help but mock the stock market response to the election results. Anyone in Greece could have seen it coming. For the last year+ most bank analysts have been using a very high probability of default by Greece in their pricing models. It amazes me that the stock and bond markets didn't already price in this kind of thing.
They are mostly pricing in a Greek unorganized exit (getting kicked in the face repeatedly until they leave) from the euro.
So this is what everyone in Greece is talking about now The young guy is in a party called Golden Dawn. They are basically nationalists who vandalize property and attack people because they want immigrants out, and know to be skinheads and troublemakers. People are so desperate for something different that they voted them into parliament (just a few seats). You an skip towards the end. I think one thing very symbolic of everything going on is the dude with the white hair, from one of the establishment parties... the way he says and does absolutely nothing is emblematic of the incumbent government... they don't do shit, because they are too busy filling their pockets. At the same time, these Golden Dawn people are animals who don't belong in the government.
did you go to baltimore? i think i am recording tomorrow but if not there is a fun "open jam" kinda thing that we might need to hit up
i went to baltimurder to check out the opening of that gay-ass casino. and to drink awesome beer. but i am back home. hit me up 2moro tho if you doing this, i'm interested.
i want a full federal monetary union so that we can strip as much power away from politicians in this country who have successively ruined this country multiple times since its foundation wilcaz, overtone, what happens when Italy own up to being broke as fuck and their banking system is down-graded to junk?
Do you guys realize that the woman who got slapped is a Communist? Communism has killed way more people than Nazism/Fascism over the last hundred years. From Lenin to Obama...
Seems pretty certain that New Democracy is winning again. New election in July probably, unless they form a coalition with that Hitler guy.
The thing is that the opposition parties are all garbage too. Pasok and ND are the establishment parties equally responsible for the mess. Syriza is trying to offer the other option but their plan actually worse for Greeks than the bailout. What the Greeks actually want is something more like the fundamentals of the Tea Party... no big gov't, no taxing... except they still want the socialist type government services and pensions to be provided. No party has acknowledged the root of the problem or proposed a way to address it.
lol Greece On July 23, 2012, Artemis Matthaiopoulos was sworn an MP with Golden Dawn for the town of Serres. The website left.gr (associated with SYRIZA), reported[97] that Matthaiopoulos was the frontman of the Nazi punk band "Pogrom" and pointed to the band's song "Auschwitz"[98] with exteme antisemitic lyrics such as “fuck Anne Frank”, “fuck the tribe of Abraham”, “piss on the Wailing Wall” and “Juden raus”.
Shit seemed at some kind of uncomfortable equilibrium over there, but just beneath the surface it was clear that everybody expects something major to go down within the next year.
