A Song Of Ice And Fire - George R R Martin (Spoilers allowed)

Her chapters in the center were certainly redundant, but I do think they served a larger point, and that they will continue to. I enjoyed most of her final chapters quite a bit (especially her literal, final chapter).

Anyway, I already know I'm an ADWD apologist among vipers in most circles. Most fans seem to be pretty intensely disappointed with it.

If you give people 5 years of eager anticipation, that's usually going to happen.

Though I'm not sure where I'd rank it, I mostly agree with you Ben. Lots of character development in the last two, not so much plot, so I'm not surprised people think that they were boring.

My bad.

but you are discussing details in that post that are potential spoilers about plot threads revealed in the trailer--threads that people who haven't read the book would have no way to know about, regardless of what's in the trailer.

so, however mild it is, it's spoiler material. that was the consensus from that huge hullabaloo: if you're gonna theorize or extrapolate based on knowledge from le beukz, do it in spoiler tags.

it IS p much a consistency thing; if you're gonna make someone put shit in spoiler tags in a thread about discussion of a book that's, what, six months old now, you should consistently spoiler tag your discussion, however light it is, of extrapolation that might involve events people who haven't read the books in the tv thread have no way to know abot in the tv thread.

I was told not to bother reading A Feast for Crows, because.....nothing happens in the whole book. A buddy of mine read it, got two pages before the end, and didn't read the last two pages for a week and a half. Said to me "that was how little I gave a shit about this book." Really inspiring me to read it....

a feast for crows was a lot slower and more difficult a read, but to say that nothing happens is a bit ridiculous. And there's a whole lot of developing characters you might have thought would be doing different things by now. Plus fucking Oberyn Martell and Victarion Greyjoy.



I just read the first Jaime chapter in ADWD and holy shit.

i have nothing against AFFC really, though it's still prolly my least favorite, next to the first book.

the only chapters i find tedious in AFFC are the iron islands ones.

Yeah as it stands I'd just have ACOK and ASOS about equal at the top, with AFFC and AGOT equal at the bottom. Still 40% or so of ADWD to go, but I'm enjoying it a lot. The first 20 or so chapters flew by, because it was like "Yay Tyrion!" and "Yay Davos!", etc.

Okay so I have finally been released from the ice and fire prison.

Here I come thread and Tower Of The Hand, for a few days, then it's off to forgetting that they exist and reading the massive stack of other books I've accrued while reading these.

Ugh... I need to re-read ADWD, read it too fast... can barley remember anything

So maybe I should post some thoughts.

I liked it.

Dany was a stupid cunt a lot of the time, but what is she, 16? There you go.

Wyman Manderly. What a champ.

also the greatjon is alive? FUCK

I hope he gets to bite off someone's head

Also - If Davos rocks up to Skagos and smuggles himself some wolf pup, the pup surely knows he is not the rightful lord of winterfell/king of the north? Like - Manderly and everyone know Bran is still alive, did they explain this?

I'm pretty sure that's irrelevant as Rickon still has more claim than anyone married to 'Arya'. They're just trying to unite against the Boltons and any male Stark will do that.

Who cares, he's going to die before he has a chance to write the seventh book anyways

that's not a threat or anything, he's just old and fat

Yeah I get that and it's a great plan, I just mean its got to be called into question, right? The reason the north would rally for the Starks is because it's theirs, rightfully, but it's bran's, rightfully. I mean what if all of westeros bends the knee to Rickon and then Bran shows up like "sup?" and hodor's all "hodor".

Then clearly some shit goes down but as Bran is the rightful heir to the North I think if he turns up then Rickon will have to step aside. Unless Rickon has been in power a few years by that point I don't see him giving way to his older brother being a problem for him at least. The North is getting very interesting as a potential four-way conflict between the Ramsays, Starks, Stannis and the Wildlings

Yeah. The original three books were great, 4 and 5 less so but I still enjoyed 5 more than 4. Why is it that most series seem to fizzle out after a trilogy?

Dunno if any of you guys have heard about this, but there's been a sample up from WoW on GRRM's website for over a month now. Not sure if I want to read it all yet...

I've known and avoided it.

I know whose chapter it is though.

And I think I know some of the implications involved...

I read it

and there is one word for it


and that word is fuck

No surprises there really...

Is that a good fuck, a bad fuck, or just like the chapter was a mercy fuck to get you through the day?

special birthday fuck

Rereading these books has reminded me of just how much I love Strong Belwas.

Sup guys, tune in now for another special edition of benhagy posts something long on the internet:

Anyway, it's been a long while since ADWD came out now, and I'm sure lots of people have read it, so I think it's time to get into some larger discussion of it. I've also reread large chunks of it and I'm coming off more and more positive about it. I'm not just saying this as an apologist, but the book really improves upon rereading it because all of your antsy expectations about plot threads actually being tied up (lol) don't exist, mostly, so you're more clearheaded about things. Firstly, I'd like to just make a list of the stuff in particular I liked (and some of the stuff I didn't) about this one on pseudo reread(still in spoiler tags, just in case, and for cleanliness):

• people complain a lot about Dany's chapters and Tyrion's, so I'm going to address both.
• Dany certainly had a few too many, I won't deny that. (though she actually had 2 less than Tyrion and 3 less than Jon). And yeah, she was highly irrational and frustrating during them, but a lot of people have been saying that nothing happens in her story, which I think is pretty ridiculous. Her arc in ADWD has a clear beginning, middle, and an ominous end. So while I do think we spend a bit too much time with her making stupid decisions in Mereen, I think her arc at large is really good. It's important to see her bumbling like an idiot at ruling, important for her growth as a ruler to fail and to fail horrendously. Her final chapter is what really sold it for me though (a chapter in particular that's been hugely divisive...) -- it almost hearkens back to her final chapter in AGOT; her hair is gone and she's confronting a khalasar with a dragon. To me, it represented a kind of rebirth for her character after so much struggling throughout the novel. Plus, her miscarriage is very ominous to me (if that's what it was, but on rereading it seemed pretty clear). I also think Dany is like Cersei in that the prophecy that follows her around might be driving her a little insane. It seems like every chapter had her thinking about it, trying to figure it out, and ultimately coming away with nothing. There's a lot on her plate.
• Also on Dany, some have noted that one of Bran's visions might have included her and actually been a vision into the future. I pretty much view this as nonsense, but it's still worth mentioning.
• Moving on to Tyrion, on reread his chapters really open up. Basically I LOVE them. Despite Penny. But I've always sort of enjoyed travelogues and stuff, and Tyrion's tour of the East is expansive and beautiful; I love especially seeing things through his eyes. His tour with Young Griff especially, and then in the cities with Jorah are very well-rendered and full of atmosphere. So I love the majority of his chapters a lot. Then there's the PLOT of Tyrion, which is a bit more problematic. I like where it's going well enough, but more than any other story in the novel, it literally just...STOPS. I think the editor made a mistake in halting Tyrion's stuff, since I'm sure he had at least one more chapter in the 100+ page cut that was made pre-publication of ADWD. But yeah, otherwise I found none of his stuff bothersome or frustrating. I was reminded of Brienne's chapters in AFFC, where we get to actually see lots of the devastation caused by the War, and here it's essentially the same: we get a big feel for the culture of the smallfolk and the ramifications of politics and war. It's especially captivating as Tyrion is essentially a smallfolk POV or the closest we've gotten to date.
• Bran's story is basically the most tragic thing ever. Jesus. All of his chapters...just grim. They are among my favorite in the series to date. Especially his final one. Meera and Jojen and Hodor are also very tragic characters. Bran slipping into Hodor is especially painful; you can feel Bran slipping away--there are countless references to it (his inability to comfort Meera being the most prominent among them). I'm not sure Bran will exactly become a tree or whatever, but either way, it's clear he's moving into dark territory.
• I still personally hope that Jon is actually dead, or else that the consequences of his death are more gruesome than any sort of by-the-numbers revitalization (i.e. he's stuck warged into Ghost, or something)
• Some people complained about Quentyn's story being useless/too long, but this is another case where I really enjoyed it. Especially the ending run. Again, tragic, well rendered stuff. Plus I'm also stoked to get more Dorne anything, which is why I also loved Areo Hotah's one-off.
• But on the other hand, I've always been shakier with the Iron Islands stuff. Asha has some nice stuff and seems to be heading in interesting directions...but Victarion. He's insane and I get that, but I don't find him or his goals particularly compelling, and they do sort of feel like they're leading nowhere special. I assume most of Slaver's Bay will get fucked up by the grey mare, then the Iron Born will clean up and possibly join Dany's side or else Dany will take them out once she refuses Victarion and he tries to kill her or something. We'll see.
• Yay Ser Barristan. Still not liking any hints about other hidden Targs though.
• Arya's final chapter was disturbing as fuck. Here's another Stark moving into some dense, dark territory. I wonder what her endgame is. She's also another character that's constantly given me data bout smallfolk and atmospheric flourishes because of her location, and I really love that. Any chance to see the smaller parts of this world I tend to relish.
• And finally: Theon. Most people agree so there's not much to say here except: his chapters rule. Another tragic plotline that I just love being a part of. I do wonder when he will ultimately die though.

So yeah, anyone else have any thoughts brewing after meditation or perhaps a reread? Also, given that IT'S ALMOST SUMMER, is there anyone out there who is down to reread books 3 - 5 with me and discuss them in tandem this summer?

I'm glad I've completely ignored the internet's opinion about ASOIAF. Honestly, I read all 7 books over the summer and loved all of them except for Feast, which was drawn out. But anyone who thinks that the series didn't regain its thunder with ADWD had unreasonable expectations, was nostalgaic about the quality of the older books being better than they actually were, or just likes bitching. I don't get how anyone could not like the Theon chapters. Same with the Tyrion ones, really. I agree Dany's sections leave a little bit to be desired, but I'm not a fan of hers anyway, even from the beginning. Overall the book was fabulous. I'm so looking forward to book 6.

Yeah, but to the readers' credit, it was very difficult not to have expectations for ADWD after AFFC (you even mentioned you found it a bit drawn out).

But yeah, ultimately anyone who is disappointed enough to want to quit the series or something seems to be unable to consider the big picture.

Plus, like you said, ADWD was great. Glad to see I'm not so alone in thinking this (though, after the very immediate backlash upon release, lots of the general public seems to have warmed up to it, similar to how it went over with AFFC).

The only problem I have with the books is I am genuinely quite concerned as to how so many plot-lines are going to be tied up adequately in two books' time. He's yet to finish a single arc aside from the characters who have died. Having said that I did really enjoy ADWD and despite Dany being totally useless the depiction of a 'royal' born finding that they are actually completely out of their depth was nicely developed.

I always thought the Targaryen's would end up having a larger role to play than just Dany but again I have reservations about adding it yet another arc to cover without closing others. IMO the number of POV characters is climbing too high and it means the individual stories are stagnating slightly.

I'm not really that bothered by the new arcs. He's got at least 2,000 pages to wrap everything up, and that's if he actually sticks to the 7 book thing, which he may not. Personally, I would not be surprised if he doesn't, being as Feast and Dance were supposed to be one book that was later broken up. I don't really care, as I'm still enjoying the ride. He can take as long as he wants with it.

just as long as he doesn't die before finishing it.

A sentiment he appears to resent.

I hope the possibility of hitting problems with the tv show speeds things up. Realistically he's got three/four years per book now to keep up with a season per year

Fuck, the actors in the show are gonna be OLD by the end.

I was thinking though, does that even matter? Which plot points would suffer? I can't think of many. They can tweak the story slightly to accomodate the kids going through adolescence fine I think. Might even make the storylines feel more realistic too.

I thought it was funny when I read that he was offended by people insinuating that he might die before he finishes. I mean healthy or not, it's a real possibility. Furthermore I wish someone would point out to him that even if he thinks he'll live long enough to finish the books there are probably thousands of readers who will die before he finishes the books.

also, I just want to say how much I love these books. AFFC is the worst but I still love it to pieces and the books are so much better than the show. I get that the show has limitations on how much content it can really contain, but part of what i love about this series is some of the minor characters and just the tons of details that tie everything together. GRRM really has crafted a rich world.

I think my favorite mounting conflict in the series--and the one I expect to take over thematically soon--is the tension between religions/mysticism/magic, progress/science/technology, and morality/justice/politics. Some Book 5 spoilers are mentioned below, just fyi,

Everyone in the series seems to stand for some system of beliefs, be it religious, empirical, or what have you. You have the stuff going on with Sam at The Citadel, where there is a clear attempt to destroy and do away with magic and to begin moving toward industrialization or something. Then we have the clear conflict of FIRE vs ICE in the religious sense (with Bran potentially representing one side, while Mel/Jon Snow/Stannis/Dany? [interesting conflict there] are the representatives on the other. Then you have all of these other religions on the fringes that aren't happy about being pushed away--the Seven seem to have little power or prominence anymore; the Iron Islanders are fiercely religious, most of them anyway, and that zealotry seems to drive them to be their brutal selves. Then there's the faceless god in bravos, an even stranger entity of background power.

Contrast to this you have apparently non-religious people like Varys who seem to be vying for an endgame that is neither religious nor non-mystical. Then there are all of the loyalists, the politicals like Davos or the Dornish; maybe these are the kinds of people who are failing to see the forest for the trees?

Here's a good quote I found on (I think) Tower of the Hand:

And which, if any, is good? Obviously, the answer is going to come down to something much more complicated than "good" or "evil" as all of them have problems. The most evil-seeming thus far (whatever darkness controls the Others) might even be witnessed through a character we wholeheartedly support in Bran. That's extremely interesting to me.

It reminds me of Varys's riddle in Book 2. There's the sellsword with conflicted notions of whom he should kill, trapped between all of these opposing forces. Who wins when all of this is over?

The answer I expect: no one or The Citadel. If magic disappears from the world for real this time, then that loss will rest on the folly of men and this whole war to begin with.

Maybe that's the heart of the story here?

I've never gotten the impression that The Children of The Forest are anything but good, and in opposition to The Others.... or have I missed something very important?

I think the two are more tied together than has been revealed so far.

I agree, but I don't think they're in the same camp.....But I guess it would be pretty cool if they were.

I was wondering how I got into the Magic: The Gathering thread.

I think the notion of Bran becoming a central figure on the side of the "bad guys" while Jaime gradually redeems himself would be a pretty awesome way for things to end up given their roles in what is probably the first "OH HOLY FUCK" moment in the series.